Dialogue Pudgy Penguins CEO: Abstract Significant progress is imminent, Ethereum and Solana have different missions

Author: Wenser, Odaily Planet Daily

At the beginning of the new year, the PENGU token has been online for over a month, and the Abstract mainnet has just launched. As a crypto media outlet closely following Pudgy Penguins, the Abstract ecosystem, and its parent company Igloo.Inc, Odaily Planet Daily conducted an in-depth interview with Pudgy Penguins CEO Luca Netz. They discussed topics such as the PENGU token, the Abstract ecosystem, the competitive landscape of L1 & L2 networks, and the vision battle between Ethereum and Solana, aiming to gain more insights into the crypto industry from Luca's perspective.

Below is the transcript of this interview, with some content edited for brevity, for readers' reference.

Note: The questioners are Odaily Planet Daily CEO Mandy and Odaily Planet Daily reporter Wenser, while the respondent is Pudgy Penguins CEO Luca Netz. The interview took place on January 31, 2025.

Q1: After the launch of the PENGU token, has the focus of Pudgy Penguins and its parent company Igloo.Inc changed?

Luca:

Yes, changes are happening. Although everyone in the crypto industry (especially those who received the PENGU token airdrop) knows about Pudgy Penguins, many still do not understand what special significance we hold in the crypto industry and what vision we ultimately want to achieve.

Therefore, our focus has shifted to—"How do we leave a deep impression on new community members and the entire crypto world, and showcase our capabilities to them?" In other words, there is a lot we need to do, such as making hundreds of thousands of new community members aware of what we are doing and showing them our ideas. Of course, everyone will soon see our follow-up actions.

Luca appeared at the launch of the PENGU token.

Q2: The Abstract mainnet has just launched; are the data and performance meeting expectations? Can you share about future ecosystem development and key layouts?

Luca:

In simple terms, what we want to do in the Abstract ecosystem is to make it "the most interesting place in the crypto world" and "provide a crypto-friendly experience from 0 to 1." If you log into the Abstract network and experience the current mainnet, we have already achieved this to some extent.

The Abstract ecosystem allows third-party integrations and lets users join in their preferred way. Unlike other on-chain ecosystems where users can only join through specific processes, our user experience is more open and flexible; if users do not like certain fixed processes, they can skip them.

Moreover, in about 3-4 weeks, the Abstract ecosystem will spark widespread discussion in the crypto field: we have many integration partnerships and plugins that will bring significant liquidity, trading volume, and TVL here. It is worth mentioning that we have not optimized for this; instead, we are optimizing for a better experience for users and their family and friends. If they log into the abs.xyz official website, they will enjoy a good user experience.

At that time, an extremely hot and active on-chain ecosystem will be presented to the public, and whether in L1 or L2 network competition, Abstract is confident it will stand out.

When others choose to go left, we choose to go right—this is the story of Pudgy Penguins and Igloo. When everything is ready, people will look back at this moment and be surprised to find: "It turns out that the Pudgy Penguins team has such foresight."

Odaily Planet Daily: Can you reveal anything about the "big event" in 3-4 weeks?

Luca:

Sure, first, we expect a large number of Web2 live streamers to enter the Abstract ecosystem; secondly, an ecosystem composed of 40-50 active funds will gradually emerge. Finally, I look forward to linking MetaMask or voluntarily integrating the Abstract ecosystem with more third-party projects.

Odaily Planet Daily: We noticed that the UI design of the Abstract mainnet is very Web2, and the interaction experience is very smooth. Was this intentional?

Luca:

Yes, because if our goal is to drive consumer adoption, this is necessary. Over the past five years, many projects have built their on-chain ecosystems in the same way, choosing to go left; we chose the opposite path—we want to capture those newcomers who have not yet entered the on-chain world. Although this may make the current on-chain community a bit uncomfortable, if we tell those users that they need several hours to piece together fragmented information to figure out how to conduct on-chain transactions on Ethereum, while now they can just log into abs.xyz and master on-chain transaction operations in 20 minutes.

We have adopted a method that no one has tried before to bring millions of new groups into the on-chain world.

Q3: This was also the purpose of NFTs, but the overall vitality of the NFT market in this cycle is poor. How do you view the future development direction of the entire NFT industry? Opensea recently launched the 2.0 points system, and many people are looking forward to Opensea's future token issuance and airdrop. What changes will this bring to the NFT industry?

Luca:

I believe that unless a minimum royalty system is adopted, it will be difficult for the NFT industry to recover.

Because what truly makes NFTs great is the act of "minting." Currently, top blue-chip NFT projects are surviving relatively well—Pudgy Penguins, Doodles, BAYC, Azuki, Milady, CryptoPunks, etc., we are still at the table, aren't we? If we had failed, we might have disappeared long ago.

So, people just choose to self-identify with a certain tribe or community and express their views. Therefore, if we want NFTs to revive, low royalties are essential. Compared to other tracks in cryptocurrency, the most interesting and competitive part of NFTs is its "minting" and "reveal." The question then becomes: if project teams have no other income after NFT minting, they have no motivation to launch a new project. This is a significant barrier that keeps many people away from NFTs. This is also why many choose to launch a token on pump.fun; this is the essence of competition. We must respect the will of the majority.

Many leading projects in the market have their own views on achieving success, but clearly, they have not considered the needs of more people. Of course, I respect those who bravely make attempts. However, over the past period, many have been building protocols and blockchain ecosystems, often starting from an NFT project to expand their community core, rather than starting from core products (like blockchains, exchanges, or related matters). So, this is the direction we have chosen.

Odaily Planet Daily: Will OpenSea's token bring changes to the NFT industry?

Luca: Undoubtedly, no.

Q4: You have previously positioned PENGU as a meme coin, so can you share some future plans for PENGU, such as staking, buybacks, burns, and other use cases?

Luca:

To be honest, we have hidden quite a few things regarding PENGU. The reason for positioning PENGU as a meme coin is that meme coins feel more fun and do not require too much consideration of competition.

In terms of meme coin market capitalization, PENGU currently ranks 12th (this is based on data at the time of the interview. According to Coingecko data, as of the time of writing, PENGU ranks 9th in meme coins and 117th in cryptocurrency market capitalization).

PENGU token ranks 9th in the meme coin category by market cap.

At the same time, Pudgy Penguins-related memes receive hundreds of millions of views daily; millions of Pudgy Penguins-related physical toy products have entered millions of households, and no other meme has achieved this. Pudgy Penguins can be said to be the cutest and most widely used crypto-native image in the past few years, resonating with people from Asia, North America, Europe, and even worldwide. It is a completely original meme that will not fade away and has been continuously tested, which is rare.

Pudgy Penguins-related memes have surpassed 40 billion views.

So, in summary, from any perspective, in terms of importance and popularity, the status of Pudgy Penguins and PENGU is not limited to being the 12th meme coin; I personally believe it should at least rank in the top three.

At the same time, meme coins that do nothing will gradually be eliminated; it is unrealistic to expect change while waiting. We can see that Trump has already changed the game—Trump launched his official meme coin, and many will follow suit, with a lot of hot money gradually gathering here. However, meme coins that expect to win without doing anything are a huge mistake.

How we view Pudgy Penguins and the PENGU token is crucial; we see it as a "Meme Coin ++" version of a token.

You must build a brand; you must create more demand around the IP; you must break barriers and boundaries; you must become more popular; you must become more infectious and shareable; you must become a cultural phenomenon.

How to achieve this?

Through games, movies, TV shows, content, social media, memes, gifts, toys, statues, and collaborations with well-known brands, embedding yourself into culture. You must cover all aspects; otherwise, it will be difficult to become the ultimate winner.

Secondly, a continuously deflationary token economic model and telling a more compelling story are essential. It is well known that PENGU is issued in the United States, which is eye-catching. But how do people view PENGU's token economics, understand the supply and demand relationship of the token, and how to reduce token supply?

We have a lot prepared and will gradually reveal it in the coming months. To be honest, the operation of BONK and BONKbot has greatly inspired me. If some projects are not good at doing this, they should improve in a timely manner; otherwise, we will take their place.

The days when a successful meme coin could be built with just an animal picture and a so-called strong community are long gone. Because Trump and TRUMP have opened Pandora's box in an unavoidable way—the past animal meme coins cannot withstand the test of time and remain unscathed under the impact of hot money and new things. Every week, or every few days, you must actively respond, burn tokens, and get out of trouble; you must remain competitive while pushing the industry forward. Otherwise, the next round will not be good.

So, the reason for viewing PENGU as a meme coin is that its technical architecture determines its meme coin attributes; its token symbol features a highly meme-like penguin image; it has been distributed to countless holders; its related elements have been embedded into cultural phenomena.

The reason for considering it a Plus version of a meme coin is that we plan to promote and sell it in the world's largest retail chains; feature it on the big screen in movies; include it in a novel; and present it in game form on the App Store and countless online desktops.

We will also bring more unprecedented well-known partners in the crypto field; we must do this.

Sometimes, I also ask myself: how can we burn some PENGU tokens and let it stand out in the market?

As long as we do the above things, a positive "success flywheel" will be generated. This is our thought process. PENGU's position as the 12th meme coin is clearly unsatisfactory to us, and many will disagree with this. On the other hand, if PENGU becomes part of content in forms like movies and games, just like the achievements we have gained in the NFT field, we will also completely transform the meme coin sector.

Q5: Will the PENGU token have more connections or collaborations with Pudgy Penguins and Abstract in the future? Will Abstract issue its own token later?

Luca:

On this matter, I have received some news and feel that many have misunderstood this for some time. Previously, I provided a lot of explanations to members of the Western community while also trying to inform partners in the Eastern community about the corresponding information.

(Odaily Note: Previously, Pudgy Penguins officials stated that the PENGU token would be linked to Abstract, leading to market speculation that it would become the Abstract chain token, while in fact, they have no such plans.)

We are doing some things for the PENGU token community, and there will be more surprises to come, although not everyone may look forward to it. But we have been working, including bringing more community members to join us and creating more value for PENGU holders.

However, human resources can sometimes be limited, and much information still remains within a certain scope. We may have reached 10,000 people, but there may be 1 million PENGU token holders, and many times we may have entered an information cocoon.

So, the current consensus is that my job is to integrate resources as best as we can, but doing it once does not mean we only need to do integration. Just like in the past few years, we have been integrating resources centered around Pudgy Penguins, continuously iterating and updating. However, we have not integrated the Abstract ecosystem through multiplier points or soft staking and bridged liquidity here; the operation here is not like that; its starting and ending points have nothing to do with this.

This is built for practical use cases, just a case, not a special right or benefit. In this regard, we must ensure that all information comes from official channels and is clear and accurate, even a simple tweet must achieve this. Therefore, the release of news regarding PENGU, Abstract, and related matters is part of our work, not all of it.

As for Abstract's token, as competition deepens, I believe it will undoubtedly have its corresponding token. But this will take some time.

As for how PENGU will integrate with it, I can only say I am very much looking forward to it, and the community will feel excited; there may be amazing convergence, but the primary goal now is not this, but how we have a large number of brand partnerships and how to showcase them to the world.

In the coming weeks, our focus will be on highlighting the competitiveness of the Abstract ecosystem.

The future of Pudgy Penguins is bright.

Q6: What do you think about the launch of the "official meme coin TRUMP token" by Trump? Do you personally have any investments?

Luca: I know the people behind this project very well; we have known each other for many years, even before I entered the crypto industry. But I did not get insider information and buy in early. I just made a small trade. When I saw the TRUMP token, its FDV was already $5 billion. So I bought $50,000 and sold it shortly after.

I had the opportunity to make a big profit, but I didn't. Because at that time, I felt it was too expensive, especially since its FDV looked really high, plus Trump had previously had some low market cap crypto projects. My logic was to compare TRUMP to DJT stocks, which also had a market cap of about $5 billion. (Odaily Planet Daily: Although 80% of TRUMP tokens are locked) Yes, that was an obvious mistake in comparison.

Q7: Trump chose Solana for the meme launch, which intensified the discussion of Ethereum vs. Solana. You also chose to launch the token on Solana. In a previous interview, you mentioned that "Solana has proven itself to be a Consumer Chain." Can you explain the difference between a "consumer chain" and a "financial chain"; and looking back at this choice now, does it meet expectations?

Luca:

Yes, for us, choosing Solana as the token launch ecosystem was the right decision. Solana is leading in guiding new users, and it can even be said that no other ecosystem does it better. We also hope that Abstract can achieve the results that the Solana ecosystem has reached for the EVM ecosystem. From our perspective, the Solana ecosystem focuses on user experience, which the Ethereum ecosystem has not achieved, reflecting the different goals of the two.

Specifically, the Ethereum ecosystem is striving to become a decentralized network nation, and the realization of this vision is crucial for every individual; this is evident. On the other hand, Solana is working hard to build the best and most performant blockchain ecosystem, and they are doing everything possible to win in competition.

So, they have different visions: Ethereum is committed to becoming an important, decentralized, and censorship-resistant ecosystem; Solana is trying to expand the boundaries of blockchain capabilities and continuously present and iterate new things. The latter undoubtedly emphasizes organizational leadership, with top-down execution, clear directives, and strict enforcement. So, this is "two cultures, two visions."

Thus, it is difficult to compare the two outside the blockchain ecosystem; in this regard, they are more like indirect competitors rather than direct enemies, as their missions are fundamentally different.

Mandy: Yes, with the launches of PENGU and TRUMP tokens, the Solana network is under immense traffic pressure but has still successfully withstood test after test. If it were any other blockchain network, the likelihood of network paralysis would be very high. Just like no blockchain network's DEX has ever reached a daily trading volume of $30 billion.

Q8: Abstract contributor cygaar previously had a conversation on X with Ethereum Foundation team member joshrudolf.eth, expressing that EF and Ethereum chain projects do not have enough contact, and EF people also admitted that there is room for improvement in their work. Vitalik previously also suggested restructuring the EF leadership, which sparked a lot of controversy. What are your thoughts on all this? How do you view the relationship between L1 and L2? Has the EF team been in contact with you recently?

Luca:

No, the Ethereum Foundation has never communicated with me.

Although I personally would be happy to communicate with EF. Because based on the achievements Pudgy Penguins has made in the Ethereum ecosystem over the past few years, Pudgy Penguins can even be considered one of the best projects in the Ethereum ecosystem, but they have indeed never reached out to me.

To be honest, as an entrepreneur, this feeling is not particularly good. In contrast, when I entered the Solana ecosystem, if I wanted to, I could communicate with Solana co-founders Toly and Raj anytime, anywhere. I have discussed this issue privately with my mentors and friends.

The conclusion is that Ethereum was not born for this (as we mentioned earlier, its mission is a network nation); while Solana's mission is. Ethereum's vision is not to engage with builders and nurture them, even though these builders are the greatest driving force behind the greatness of this ecosystem. I personally do not agree with this approach, but, you know, Ethereum's mission is above all; its goal is to be a censorship-resistant resilient blockchain network, even if no one uses it, it still serves this purpose.

It does not exist to cater to me. Although I believe that if they could make efforts in this regard, Ethereum would be more successful in terms of price.

Just as the TRUMP meme coin has boosted the development of the Solana ecosystem and the price of SOL, just as a few years ago, we should not underestimate how NFT speculation drove Ethereum's price to soar—NFT bull markets brought ETH to historical high prices. Today, not many people are rushing to Ethereum to trade NFTs because there is nothing prepared for ordinary people. This is why Solana has achieved its current results; while the Ethereum ecosystem was still indifferent to NFT projects built over the years a month ago. When I placed Pudgy Penguins-related physical toys on Walmart's shelves, I still found it difficult to gain any form of recognition from these people. I must say, this feeling is terrible.

Because I am contributing value to a network that does not value my worth, but as I realized after communicating with my mentors: there is nothing to complain about because the Ethereum ecosystem is not focused on this.

Communicating with the top figures of Solana is much smoother, which is why I believe Solana has reached its peak today. Until this situation changes, the Ethereum ecosystem may still face difficulties; this is not even a special case in the NFT track. Previously, people from the Ethereum Foundation even severely underestimated the value of DeFi, which is really crazy. Although historically, NFTs preceded DeFi. So, I think they may be turning a new page and understanding the importance of DeFi and NFTs.

Of course, the reality is that the EF developers are not a team familiar with business operations, nor is that their function. So, I understand them, and I respect all of them. After all, they are the cornerstone of the Ethereum ecosystem.

Q9: How do you view competition at the blockchain network ecosystem level? With so many L1 and L2 networks now, how do you define and establish your core competitiveness?

Luca: I believe that currently, only four blockchain networks have high competitiveness and a practical vision and adoption, including ETH, Solana, Base, and SUI (which may give SUI more recognition than many people imagine, even though many may overlook it, it is indeed on this list).

Because I do know that some things are happening in the SUI ecosystem. To be honest, it is really difficult to judge and filter. Networks like ZKSync, Arbitrum, Optimism, etc., are more like superchains or elastic chains or other core layers, rather than true blockchain network ecosystems, which is my personal perspective.

Because these networks prefer others to build L2 and L3 networks based on their tech stack rather than becoming the central destination for everyone to flock to; they do not care about consumer adoption rates but are more concerned with collaborating with Azuki or Pudgy Penguins, and then these projects drive consumer adoption.

In simple terms, they do not care about individual users, whether they are your family or friends; they just want to be the center of their ecosystem. So, this is a completely different business model.

Among these four, Ethereum stays true to its mission; Solana, Base, and SUI may be in the same competitive position, ranking first, second, and third. The issue among them is that Base may not have a unique advantage that distinguishes it from Solana; it even lacks competitiveness in the EVM system, while the territory of the EVM system is also shrinking.

This is what Abstract aims to do, directly confronting Base and other networks, but our user interface and user experience have certain differentiations. Interface innovation is the direction Abstract is striving for, and it is also our means of winning in terms of user experience, branding, community, and so on.

Additionally, it remains to be seen that Base cannot just do general things similar to the Solana ecosystem; if you adopt a following strategy, then Base, as an Ethereum network expansion ecosystem, will fail in this capital competition. The capital of Ethereum is not equivalent to the capital of Base; you must have something distinctive.

Of course, it must be acknowledged that the Base ecosystem team is indeed impressive, especially after experiencing the building of the Abstract network over the past few months; I can better appreciate how incredible their work is, as they are continuously launching amazing products. So we have learned a lot from standing on their shoulders, and I hope the above words can serve as a perspective supplement for their reference.

So, what is the most challenging aspect of building a blockchain network? Especially the part that surprises you?

So far, the most difficult part should be ecosystem management. We should and could have done better on the launch day of Abstract. Intuitively, we have about 120 excellent applications that can be embedded in the EVM architecture, but for various reasons, only 5 applications were ready on launch day. As is well known, a blockchain network has too many things to do. But this can also be easily solved because we have various communication channels, so now what we need to do is to gradually push each channel forward. This is essentially a management and operational issue, especially needing to treat all builders equally.

Q10: AI is undoubtedly the hottest topic right now. Have you considered integrating AI technology or exploring other emerging fields? What specific directions are currently being prepared?

Luca:

We have prepared some AI-related initiatives for the PENGU ecosystem and the Pudgy Penguins ecosystem. We are about to deploy an AI project on the Abstract network with a senior person from the AI industry; she is from Japan and is a friend of mine, having worked in the digital avatar field in Web2 for many years, with 4 years of experience in AI digital human production, being a pioneer in this industry. She has had deep collaborations with LV and Balenciaga, and her digital avatar has appeared as a supermodel.

In the future, she will launch a new AI project and corresponding token on Abstract. I believe this will be the hottest token in the Abstract ecosystem to date, and I am looking forward to her project and products. So, undoubtedly, our ecosystem is about to welcome a big explosion of AI projects. The specific timing has not been determined yet, but I can reveal that this AI is called Miria AI. This may be the coolest AI project in Abstract in the short term because it is different from the AI agents flooding the X platform; it is more like luxury brands in the AI field, such as LV and Balenciaga.

Q11: What new progress has Pudgy Penguins made in mass adoption? Such as online and offline toy sales, IP collaborations, etc.? How to extend the IP lifecycle? How does the Pudgy Penguins team balance traditional IP business and crypto-native business?

Luca:

Yes, we will announce some latest news this week, including several offline stores in South Korea. A few days ago, we just announced a collaboration with Candy Pez, a highly recognizable and super popular retail brand (Odaily Planet Daily Note: This is an Austrian company specializing in producing candy and manual candy dispensers, established in 1927, known as 贝思糖果 in Chinese). We have been promoting brand collaborations, and last year, Pudgy Penguins toy sales exceeded 2 million, achieving excellent sales. In just December 2024, we sold about 400,000 toys, setting the best record to date.

Regarding business balance, our team currently has 65 people, with 20 in the crypto field and 45 in the IP field. Clear division of labor brings a good business balance.

Q12: Can you share your outlook for 2025?

Luca:

I believe this year will be the year of Igloo; the market position of PENGU will not only remain at the 12th position among meme coins but is expected to break into the top three; Abstract will become the only market competitor, especially in driving user adoption, and will directly compete with Base. I believe that Pudgy Penguins NFT will become the number one project in the NFT market by market cap by the end of this year.

Q13: As a creator, how can one contribute to the Abstract ecosystem and receive corresponding rewards and incentives?

Luca:

Yes, the live streaming mechanism is one of the most exciting parts of the Abstract ecosystem, and I hope everyone can participate. For individual content creators, we will have a lot of reward incentives, and this aspect will have a very high proportion.

I personally and the Abstract ecosystem hold the utmost respect for content creators. Especially for live streamers, such as sports streamers, they can earn rewards by live streaming themselves playing basketball, although it may not be particularly much. The key is that users can transmit content through a fixed Abstract live streaming application, creating content around this action, thereby enhancing user stickiness, expanding network effects, and finding their own PMF and subsequent growth flywheel. For top live streamers, this is a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity.

If a token in the Abstract ecosystem achieves this goal, the corresponding rewards will be very considerable. But the premise is that you must contribute to the ecosystem's development. In other words, your content of live streaming and sports on Twitch or other platforms does not mean much to me, but if you live stream on the Abstract application and continuously produce ecosystem-related content, then your rewards will be maximized. So what you need to do now is to apply as a creator, complete the corresponding process, and we will gradually disclose more information in the coming weeks.

Odaily Planet Daily: It sounds like Abstract may become a competitor to social media platforms like YouTube and TikTok in the future?

Luca:

Yes, that's right.