Exclusive Interview with Lily Liu, Chair of the Solana Foundation: Building a Blockchain Ecosystem is Like Climbing the Tower of Babel

Interviewee: Lily Liu, Chair of the Solana Foundation

Author: Anderson Sima, Foresight News

If we conduct a background survey of entrepreneurs in the Web3 world, it is not difficult to find that the founders of the leading ecosystems and projects are mostly new immigrants. Ethereum's founder Vitalik Buterin is of Russian descent, Binance's founder Changpeng Zhao is of Chinese descent, and the world's richest person Elon Musk, who has been closely following the crypto field, is of South African descent.

University of California scholar AnnaLee Saxenian once described this group of immigrants with a concept—"New Argonauts"; in Greek mythology, the Argonauts refer to a group of warriors who embarked on an adventure to find the Golden Fleece aboard the ship Argo. Saxenian borrowed this metaphor to describe modern tech immigrants. They arrive in the "land of adventure" from their home countries, gain valuable knowledge, skills, and resources, and then return home with the "Golden Fleece," driving local innovation and technological advancement.

Solana, which has experienced several resurrections, is also like this. One of the founders, Anatoly Yakovenko, is of Ukrainian descent, and Raj Gokal is from India, while Lily Liu, who is responsible for the Solana Foundation, is also of Chinese descent.

Lily is originally from Changsha, Hunan, and her Chinese name is Liu Yuanli. Her parents left the mainland for Taiwan in 1949 and settled in the U.S. after studying abroad, becoming first-generation immigrants. Lily was born in the U.S., but she still retains the cultural symbols of a "spicy girl," which come from the cooking aromas of her grandparents that quietly accompanied her growth. After graduating from Stanford University, Lily returned to the mainland, where she has many years of work experience in Beijing, Shanghai, and other places. By chance, she began to engage with Bitcoin and blockchain technology in 2013. In 2021, at the invitation of Solana founders Anatoly Yakovenko and Raj Gokal, she officially joined Solana and took charge of foundation affairs.

At the beginning of 2025, Foresight News conducted an exclusive interview with Lily. In her view, the existing Solana ecosystem does not solely focus on a specific type of application innovation like Memecoins; Solana's ambition is to become an emerging financial infrastructure for the world, which also explains why the community is flocking to the Solana ecosystem amid the Memecoin frenzy. In the face of this "massive traffic," Solana's official response has been remarkably calm and restrained.

Here is the full content, with some omissions:

Foresight News: The year 2024 has just passed. What important progress has Solana made?

Lily: From any metric, our ecosystem achieved significant growth in 2024. Whether it's transaction volume, user count, or capital flow, we are showing a strong upward trend. Around September or October last year, we surpassed Ethereum in some key metrics. One is the economic value capture of the blockchain itself; we surpassed Ethereum in October. Additionally, if we look at application layer revenue, we also exceeded Ethereum. Moreover, according to a recent developer report, there has been an annual report detailing the number of developers in various regions for the past six years. Since July last year, our developer community has been growing the fastest.

Ethereum currently has about 20,000 developers, having started with smart contracts back in 2015. We now have about 7,500 developers; although we started five years later than Ethereum, our growth rate is also very rapid.

From these data, our blockchain ecosystem has become very rich and valuable, attracting more developers and community participants. The main goal of application development is to attract users and create profitable products, thereby forming a virtuous cycle.

In 2024, based on these metrics, Solana has set several historical highs.

Foresight News: If you had to summarize Solana's performance in 2024 with one keyword, what would you choose?

Lily: It wouldn't be Memecoin. (laughs)

Foresight News: What is the focus for Solana in 2025?

Lily: Internally, we have several plans. We have a framework for blockchain growth, similar to a three-layer structure. The most basic layer is the blockchain itself, which is the foundation of the entire ecosystem, like land; without the blockchain, developers and users cannot work.

The second layer is the application layer, which requires a developer community to build applications. This is akin to needing land and houses, but also people to develop and operate them to form an economic society.

The third layer is the "city" layer, where the ecosystem needs to form successful cities like New York, Hong Kong, and Singapore. On one hand, it requires culture; on the other hand, it needs a special economic model. In the development process, we need to innovate more on the blockchain network and continuously push technology forward. For example, in terms of the underlying network, our goal is to increase bandwidth and reduce latency.

At the application layer, our focus is on founders, applications, and tokens. In 2017, an industry article mentioned that value capture on the blockchain mainly occurs at the application layer, similar to how Facebook, Google, and others captured significant value at the application layer in Web2. In the blockchain industry, this has also formed a viewpoint that we should focus on the development of the second layer.

The core asset of our ecosystem is talent. If we use cities as an analogy, New York is New York because of its international talent. The blockchain needs technology, but talent is key. Over the past ten years, many blockchain projects have emerged, but only Ethereum and Solana have formed large developer ecosystems because building a successful ecosystem is hundreds of times more difficult than just creating a project.

We have always focused on developers, but now creating a successful application requires a broader range of capabilities, not just developers, but also talents in product, marketing, and other areas. From the beginning, blockchain has been like the vision described in the Bitcoin white paper, aiming to achieve personal digital ownership, even community ownership, which differs from the current models of corporate or national ownership, opening up new possibilities for ownership models.

To realize the vision of blockchain, several conditions are needed: first, a high-performance network; second, a developer community; third, sufficient assets and reasonable ways to utilize those assets. At the application layer, we need to establish a good economic system, focusing on on-chain assets.

At the same time, to build a good blockchain ecosystem, we need "soft power" in addition to hard power, such as culture. If we were to explain why New York has a unique culture and atmosphere, it would be due to an intangible feeling. Building a city requires both hardware and software; here, software includes the culture between people. Cities like Abu Dhabi and Dubai have continuously developed their hardware infrastructure over the past 20-30 years while also attracting cultural institutions, such as the Louvre Museum, to establish cultural appeal.

If we think a bit deeper, we hope to establish a large economic system on the blockchain. To attract assets, we need to achieve things on-chain that cannot be done through traditional means. So far, the allure of blockchain has mainly been in speculation, but in the long run, the economic system is not just about transactions; it is also an exchange system. Any economy has a transactional part, but payment is not just about buying and selling; it is a form of exchange.

In our industry, speculation is currently the main focus, such as assets rising from 0 to 10 dollars, which provided early market value propositions for the industry. However, in the long run, we hope to have traditional transaction-based applications and a larger payment-focused market. We are not just doing transactions or payments; our goal is to become a universal platform, just as the internet is not just about email or a single application. We hope to attract various assets and provide financial services for the entire range of assets.

Foresight News: With Trump about to take office, how does Solana view the new U.S. government's crypto regulatory measures?

Lily: We are very concerned about Trump's return to power. Over the past four years, the U.S. government has not been very supportive of blockchain and has even been somewhat opposed to cryptocurrencies, but now the situation has changed. The new government has shifted its focus and support for technology. We know that the U.S. has been at the forefront of every round of technological development in Silicon Valley over the past 30 years, and we believe the new government will recognize the strategic support that blockchain provides to the U.S. So we are very hopeful and have plans to collaborate with the U.S. government in the future.

Foresight News: Wall Street has significantly increased its holdings in Bitcoin spot ETFs in 2024, but the funds have not entered the ecosystem. Under the new U.S. government's leadership, will more talent and capital enter the crypto space?

Lily: Yes, with each round, more and more people from different backgrounds are becoming interested in blockchain and entering the field. It depends on what the trending application areas are in each round, which will attract corresponding talents and assets.

Currently, this round is focusing on some new application directions, such as on-chain structured products that combine with traditional financial structured products, which have a lot of design space. Some talents from Wall Street can participate in this area. We are also seeing new developments, like Ethena, which is a new stablecoin with its own technology and system. Some talents from Wall Street can learn from its development and apply some traditional financial designs on-chain. This combination will bring new products and visions, thereby promoting ecosystem development.

Foresight News: Vitalik has commented on Solana, stating that he believes Solana lacks sufficient decentralization. However, I have also seen many projects recently saying they want to move to Solana. How do you view the competitive relationship with Ethereum?

Lily: I have great respect for the original team of Ethereum. They had the vision to create Ethereum back in 2015 and successfully implemented the technology, which is remarkable. They truly value decentralization and understand its importance. Last year, Vitalik also wrote an article outlining related principles and visions, which align with the principles and visions of blockchain.

However, Ethereum and EVM have undergone significant changes. The EVM community has become very broad, and some metrics and actual situations no longer match. We cannot always view things through the lens of the past. In terms of measuring decentralization, there have been significant differences from 2020 to now. Many people's understanding of decentralization is overly simplistic, believing that more nodes and greater distribution equate to a better chain, but that is not necessarily the case.

We have made some technical choices, such as increasing the technical requirements and costs for nodes, which are about twice that of Ethereum (not ten times). This is to better support products and user experiences and to lighten the burden on users and developers. Therefore, some viewpoints on decentralization in the industry are inaccurate and based on outdated information.

Additionally, some L2 projects claim to prioritize decentralization but actually operate in a centralized manner, such as using centralized sequencers, which is logically contradictory.

Foresight News: What do you think about the relationship between the Sui ecosystem and the Base ecosystem?

Lily: I know many developers like Sui's language. We welcome competition because competition drives us to innovate faster and better. Currently, Sui is a relatively successful ecosystem; they focus on products, applications, and users, and we hope to learn more from them.

Regarding Base, going back to Bitcoin's original vision, it emphasizes community ownership and individual and community ownership. However, the contradiction with Base is that, based on last year's data, most of its network fees have turned into profits for Coinbase, with very little funding going to the Ethereum mainnet; most of it is still retained by Coinbase.

If calculated annually, Coinbase's earnings from Base are close to $100 million. As a company, serving shareholders is understandable, but from the original values of blockchain, it should be about individual and community ownership. Base primarily represents corporate ownership, which is inconsistent with the concept of blockchain.

Coinbase 2024 Q4 revenue distribution, image source from X

Foresight News: The two hottest sectors in 2024 are Memecoins and AI Agents. What are your thoughts on these two sectors?

Lily: In my view, Memecoins are a type of asset. Each cycle has different technological trends, such as NFTs, blockchain games, DePin, etc., but they all share a common point: they need traffic. Where the traffic is, people will choose to go.

When I joined Solana, the community viewed Solana as an NFT chain, then as a DePin chain, and now it is humorously referred to as a "Meme chain." In fact, we have never defined ourselves as an ecosystem serving only one specific track; we hope to become a universal platform.

Now many AI technology projects choose to issue tokens on Solana because of its high performance, fast speed, and low transaction fees. The key is that traffic can be found on Solana, and only with traffic can pricing be established.

Just as no one says Ethereum is a chain that focuses solely on one track, Ethereum was originally meant to be a general-purpose computer. After several years of development, we have also become a universal platform.

Foresight News: What are your thoughts on AI + Crypto?

Lily: I think any new technology goes through a "Gartner Hype Cycle." Each technology has a period of significant growth when it is first discovered, followed by a trough, then a rise, and finally a stable development phase. The blockchain field has developed in a similar manner; previously it was NFTs, now it's Memes and AI. They will all exist in the long run but will go through this process.

Technology maturity curve, image source Wikipedia

I believe AI is currently in its first stage, experiencing tremendous growth. In the long run, it will have uses, but there may be excessive hype. In fact, many innovative concepts were discussed a decade ago, such as AI + trading, and now some related applications are beginning to realize these concepts.

Foresight News: Now let's talk specifically about the Solana ecosystem. The Backpack exchange recently acquired the FTX Europe derivatives brand. Did the Solana Foundation participate and play a role in this?

Lily: Not at all. To be honest, I only learned about this news from you when you mentioned it; I should congratulate them. (laughs)

Foresight News: In 2024, we launched Blinks, and the Solana hardware phone has also been updated to its second generation. However, will they stagnate after the initial hype fades?

Lily: Blinks itself is a developer tool; it is not a product aimed directly at consumers but is used to support developers in creating new products that consumers can enjoy and use. In the long run, Solana has many different functionalities to integrate, and Blinks is one important developer feature. It was released six months ago and is now an open-source product that many are using behind the scenes to develop payment applications, issue tokens, and other functions. Its uniqueness lies in its ability to be reflected and used by consumers on any social media platform.

Foresight News: What about the Solana phone?

Lily: The phone is not a product directly made by our foundation; it is a project developed by another team. The second-generation phone, Seeker, has not yet been officially released. From the perspective of the foundation and the entire ecosystem, mobile devices are very important for the development of our industry and Solana because global consumers primarily use mobile phones to access the internet. Currently, there are issues with the blockchain experience on mobile devices, one being security concerns, and the other being the APP Store policies of Apple and Google, such as Apple taking a 30% cut, which involves business models and software solutions. Some teams are trying to solve the problem of integrating blockchain with mobile devices from the ground up, and our foundation welcomes various mobile phones and mobile hardware and software to provide support. Currently, there are different price range mobile projects, such as a $99 phone aimed at the African and South American markets, as well as devices around $500. We welcome a variety of options to meet the needs of different consumers.

Foresight News: Recently, the award-winning projects from the Solana hackathon have been very popular in the community. What are your thoughts?

Lily: I think our hackathon is still primarily a technical and development-focused event. It is normal for people to pay attention to the profitability of projects, but we mainly cultivate from the perspective of the technical development of the developer community. Moreover, I still hope to see more representatives from the Chinese-speaking community at the hackathon because I have always believed that the Chinese-speaking region is an important market.

Our industry has two major markets: one is the U.S., and the other is the Chinese-speaking region. Since I joined the Solana Foundation three years ago, we have been working on global growth to make Solana an international brand, and we have been active in about 20 countries. If we categorize different markets into talent markets and capital markets, only the U.S. and China have both. For example, Europe is a developer market for high-end talent, India is a developer market, and the Middle East is a capital market.

Over the past four years, both the Chinese-speaking region and the U.S. market have faced regulatory restrictions, but now the U.S. has opened up, and there is some room for technical cooperation in the Chinese-speaking region. Therefore, I am very optimistic about the Chinese-speaking region and hope to attract talent from there because talent is the most valuable asset in the ecosystem.

So our challenge is how to attract that talent, mainly looking at what our projects can offer, because attracting talent means hoping they can leave their current jobs to start their own ventures, which is a high requirement. I also understand that different regions have different considerations, so we are constantly thinking about how to gain more recognition for Solana from talents.

Foresight News: There are many foundations in the industry. How do they differ from traditional foundations, and what role do they play?

Lily: A foundation is primarily an entity, which provides a practical possibility for blockchain projects to operate within the existing legal framework, as current laws require us to have an entity. I remember that Ethereum initially chose to register its foundation in Switzerland, which was a start and an attempt, and then others began to follow suit by registering foundations in Switzerland.

Traditional foundations, like the Gates Foundation, obtain funding through Microsoft, primarily for tax optimization or avoidance, such as donating a portion of profits to reduce taxes or donating everything to avoid taxes.

In contrast, the purpose of blockchain foundations is entirely different from traditional foundations. Although both are entities, the assets of blockchain foundations are not earned by themselves but are allocated to them by projects. Therefore, their role is to become part of community ownership, helping to provide public facilities, just as governments provide public services, such as supporting the development and coordination of public goods like developer tools. Many companies focus on their own profitable products and do not take responsibility for these public affairs, so foundations take on this role. From this perspective, blockchain foundations are more like a city's government; we are civil servants in the tech field, serving the community.

Foresight News: In many industries, gender issues and related news are sensitive topics. What are your thoughts on the topic of female practitioners in the blockchain field?

Lily: I have been working in this circle for ten years, and I have never thought that gender would affect my work efficiency or situation. Perhaps my experience has been relatively fortunate, but I have always felt that this industry welcomes innovation and technological advancement from people of any background. A talented 20-year-old developer can collaborate with a 50-something trader with rich experience on Wall Street. The blockchain does not care much about previous backgrounds; it values contributions in this industry, regardless of gender, language, background, or age. Of course, there will always be criminal behavior; the person who harassed women is just an exception and does not represent our industry.

I believe blockchain provides many people with opportunities; anyone from any background can enter this circle and have equal opportunities—not equal results, but equal opportunities. In fact, this is not achievable in all places, as many countries have restrictions in terms of economy, politics, and employment. Therefore, I think the concept of blockchain is very important; it attracts many people not only because of technology and profit but also because of an equal vision that allows people from any background to enter an international platform.