Stacks co-founder Muneeb Ali: Let Bitcoin L2 thrive

Author: Nelson Wang

Compiled by: Scof, ChainCatcher

On January 2, Muneeb Ali, co-founder and CEO of Stacks, a leading second-layer (L2) Bitcoin project, changed his X (formerly Twitter) bio from "Founder @Stacks" to "War-time Founder @Stacks." This change indicates that Ali recognizes 2025 as a crucial year for Stacks to shift from technological upgrades in 2024 to market expansion and user growth. Last year, Stacks completed the long-awaited Nakamoto Upgrade, which significantly enhanced the project's speed and achieved 100% finality for all transactions on Bitcoin.

Ali believes that this strategic adjustment for Stacks is particularly important as the crypto market enters a bull market due to Donald Trump's election as president and develops in a more favorable policy environment.

"Changing the bio is a signal to the community that 'we recognize this is a different time than before, and we need to act faster and more aggressively,'" Ali said in an interview with CoinDesk. "It's not that there won't be product upgrades in 2025, but you could say that products will no longer be the core focus of our work."

Here, Ali shares what different decisions he would make if he could replan the Nakamoto Upgrade; his candid views on the slow progress of the Lightning Network in driving Bitcoin payments; his expectations for Bitcoin's price trajectory in 2025; and his ultimate goal of bringing a billion people on-chain through Stacks. Additionally, Ali will speak at the Consensus Hong Kong conference in February.

This interview has been condensed and lightly edited for clarity.

Q: What is the current status of the Nakamoto Upgrade?

Ali: I still believe that Bitcoin really needs a truly excellent L2. One reason is that the user experience (UX) on the first layer (L1) won't change; you can't achieve fast and low-cost transactions on L1. That's why many people are interested in the Lightning Network. It has been around for a while and has some adoption, but it's not particularly high. Frankly, that's the reality.

Therefore, I think there is still a need for a Bitcoin transaction network that can provide extremely fast speeds and an excellent user experience. You could say that even Solana has far outperformed the Lightning Network or any other solution in this regard. So one of our goals is to build a Bitcoin L2 similar to Solana that can achieve ultra-fast transfers of any funds and provide an excellent user experience. I believe the Nakamoto Upgrade is helping us move toward that goal.

Q: If you could redo the Nakamoto Upgrade, what would be different?

Ali: The release of the Nakamoto Upgrade was divided into several phases. First, we completed the migration of core consensus capital in April. Then we launched the fast block feature, but more complex transactions couldn't benefit from it. Next, we released another version that allowed complex transactions to enjoy the benefits of the upgrade. However, looking back at the whole process, it felt more like a "gradual release." Each phase raised high expectations, but there were consecutive reactions of "not fully realized yet." By the time the features were fully rolled out, I think it did somewhat diminish the initial excitement.

Q: Will developers' interest shift back to Bitcoin in 2025?

Ali: I believe so. Bitcoin is like a unique entity that will never disappear, regardless of how the market changes. Even if you observe the dynamics of the public markets, you'll find that more and more publicly traded companies are building Bitcoin reserves. In terms of adoption, Bitcoin is far ahead of any other project.

Perhaps a year ago, Bitcoin L2 sparked more enthusiasm, but that enthusiasm seems to have cooled a bit now. However, I think Bitcoin's foundational status is so important that people will ultimately return to it.

Q: What impact will Trump have on Bitcoin's development?

Ali: A significant one. Look at the advisors he has chosen, such as David Sachs, who will serve as the crypto and AI czar. He is a key limited partner at Multicoin Capital and is well-versed in the latest developments in cryptocurrency and Solana, so I think this will have a huge impact. Other advisors chosen by Trump are similarly influential. For the past four years, the U.S. government and regulators have been almost in opposition to us. Now, I believe they will actively support and encourage the development of this field, and this 180-degree shift is very important and beneficial for the industry.

Moreover, if the Bitcoin reserve plan is truly implemented, whether on a national scale or limited to certain states (like Texas or Wyoming), it will send a very strong signal globally.

Q: What is your prediction for Bitcoin's price by the end of 2025?

Ali: I still believe in the four-year cycle theory, and I think the current cycle will end in the fourth quarter of 2025. Although there are some reasons to believe the cycle may not be as dramatic as in the past, I personally still hold this belief. If Bitcoin's price does not reach $150,000 by the end of the year, I would be surprised. I do think we could see a price of $200,000, which would be my expected upper limit.

Q: When will fast payments with Bitcoin be realized?

Ali: We are working hard to push this process forward. I think the Lightning Network deserves credit—there are indeed many loyal users using it. However, the technology itself is quite complex and not easy to integrate. Additionally, the Bitcoin community has largely focused its attention on one project. I think a better approach would be to allow multiple experiments to run simultaneously to see which ones can attract more attention. What makes me happy is that there are now many different projects launching in Bitcoin's L2, and we can finally see multiple experiments unfolding in parallel. If the integration of the Lightning Network is too difficult, then let other projects try to solve that problem.

If you attend Bitcoin conferences or listen to some top figures speak, like Michael Saylor, the founder of MicroStrategy, you'll find that they usually consider the Lightning Network to be the only solution. They rarely mention other L2 projects. I think this is partly because some L2s have their own tokens, and the Bitcoin community is not particularly interested in those tokens. However, I believe this attitude has at least started to loosen up now.

Q: What excites you about discussing at the Consensus Hong Kong conference?

Ali: How to bring Bitcoin to a billion people? This is something that excites me and drives our technical decisions. If this is your goal, then almost immediately you will focus on L2, because on Bitcoin's first layer (L1), a billion people can't even simultaneously hold unspent transaction outputs (UTXOs). I feel that many Bitcoin enthusiasts may not realize that the Bitcoin chain cannot support a billion people simultaneously holding UTXOs solely on L1.

This point is not discussed much in our industry. Many people have accepted the way of bringing users into Bitcoin through Coinbase, Binance, or ETFs. But that is not the true meaning of Bitcoin. The core of Bitcoin is decentralization, self-custody, and allowing people to have direct control over their assets. We must never forget this mission.