Exclusive Interview with Virtuals Protocol Co-founder: We Don't Want to Be Pump.fun, but We Want Our Competitors to Feel Despair

Author: Shenchao TechFlow

Recently, Virtuals Protocol has been gaining momentum in the wave of AI Agents, with its related Agents and corresponding tokens on Base attracting considerable attention and discussion.

Today, Virtuals also launched on South Korea's Bithumb, further fueling everyone's FOMO sentiment.

As early as eight months ago, we introduced Virtuals in "Virtual Protocol: An AI Factory Born for Games and the Metaverse, Where Everyone Can Contribute and Benefit"1, but it did not spark much discussion at that time.

While no one was paying attention to AI, it suddenly became known to the world.

How did Virtuals become popular along the way? What new gameplay and plans are there for the future?

With these questions in mind, Shenchao TechFlow had an in-depth conversation with Virtuals co-founder Wee Kee (X: @everythingempt0); the discussion included Virtuals' growth, views on the AI Agent track, differences with Pump.fun, and perspectives on the Base ecosystem.

In the conversation, Wee Kee believes that Virtuals' success involves both luck and ongoing exploration in AI-related fields; he also candidly stated that the project does not want to become Pump.fun, as its core KPI is not to rapidly issue assets but to attract top AI teams to build on the platform.

As a highly competitive person, Wee Kee also stated:

I want my competitors to feel despair.

What other untold stories are there about Virtuals? In the fiercely competitive crypto market, can it ultimately succeed through differentiation?

The following content is a整理稿 of our conversation, and the podcast audio version is also online: Click here

From Gaming Guilds to Virtuals

Shenchao TechFlow: First, could you introduce yourself, such as your role in the team and your interests?

Wee Kee:

Hello, I am one of the co-founders of Virtuals.

I entered the blockchain field in 2016, purchasing Ethereum and Bitcoin, but I did not get deeply involved at that time. After graduating from university, I worked at Boston Consulting for two and a half years, during which I missed the DeFi Summer. By 2021, when GameFi guilds were particularly hot, we began to earn some profits from projects like Axie Infinity, Gala, and Illuvium.

After that, I resigned because we saw guilds like Merit Circle and GuildFi receiving substantial funding. We thought we could do similar projects, which led to the inception of Virtuals - PathDAO, a gaming guild. Although the form has changed from a gaming guild in 2021 to the current Virtuals, it is essentially the same company.

Shenchao TechFlow: I remember you are Malaysian, right?

Wee Kee: Yes, I am of Chinese descent from Malaysia.

Shenchao TechFlow: This year, the industry has a positive outlook on Web3 and crypto practitioners in Malaysia. For example, CoinGecko is well-known, and Etherscan and Jupiter are also in Malaysia. Could you introduce some of the top projects currently in Malaysia and the local crypto ecosystem?

Wee Kee:

It's a bit embarrassing because I usually focus on work. I only recently started communicating with the teams at CoinGecko and Jupiter. In fact, we have been sharing the same WeWork space with the Jupiter team, but we hadn't communicated before. Recently, we started to have some contact with the CoinGecko team.

The Success of Virtuals: Behind Multiple Failed Explorations in the AI Track

Shenchao TechFlow: Now that Virtuals is popular, discussions about Virtuals and its ecosystem projects can be seen in both Chinese and English circles. The outside world may not understand how Virtuals has come this far; could you share the entrepreneurial journey behind it?

Wee Kee:

Initially, we were focused on trading in 2021. At that time, we saw other projects raising a lot of funds to create gaming guilds, and we thought we could try it too. So in December 2021, we raised $16 million at a $600 million valuation and issued a token, initially focusing on gaming guilds.

That was at the peak of the bull market. From 2022 to 2023, we actually operated more like a gaming guild VC, investing in about 40 different blockchain gaming projects. One of the more successful ones is Off The Grid (currently the hottest game on Avalanche). They had not contacted us before; suddenly one day they became popular, and that was a seed round project we invested in.

From 2022 to 2023, running a gaming guild was very difficult. Our token's FDV (Fully Diluted Valuation) dropped from $600 million to $6 million. However, our guild still retained funds, and we were continuously seeking ways to empower the token, so we began to develop a Venture Studio.

During this period, we tried multiple projects: a dating app, an AI music project, a lending platform for gamers, and a clothing project that integrated electronic chips and NFTs.

Although none of these projects succeeded, they provided us with important insights: we realized that AI would definitely become a hot topic, a conclusion we reached when GPT was released in 2023.

Considering we had a tech team, engineering capabilities, and financial reserves, we proposed a transformation to DAO. Ultimately, 90% of the members agreed to the transformation, and for the remaining 10% who disagreed, we used treasury funds to buy back their tokens at an approximate fully diluted valuation of $10 million at that time.

This happened in February 2023. So we officially began working on AI, starting in January 2024, choosing to develop AI Gaming on Base.

In February of this year, we launched our first platform. The initial inspiration for this platform came from Autonolas and Bittensor, adopting a model that rewards AI contributors with token incentives.

However, we discovered some issues: first, many AI contributors do not lack money and are not very interested in tokens; second, our token's value was too low to provide sufficient incentives like Bittensor. This product did not find a market fit.

At the same time, we developed several AI projects. We are the first company in the world to develop an AI RPG on Roblox, not just in the cryptocurrency field but across the entire industry. We are also the second team after Google DeepMind to develop AI games without a game engine, creating a game that allows players to use large models to play Mario. This is a project we are proud of, but it did not receive much attention because it lacked a token.

Meanwhile, we developed a virtual streamer project on Douyin and TikTok, which later became Luna. Before issuing the token, she could gain about 5,000 new followers daily, with a daily income of about $200, which is quite good in a bear market environment.

Later, GOAT became popular, boosting the attention of the entire track, which was also a very favorable external environment for us.

Shenchao TechFlow: It sounds like you made many different attempts and did not initially decide to pursue the AI Agent direction. If GOAT had not suddenly become popular, what were your plans? What changes did GOAT's sudden popularity bring to your original plans?

Wee Kee:

Actually, there wouldn't be much change. Our idea is quite simple: regarding AI Agents, we firmly believe that a form called AIRPG will definitely emerge in future game genres.

For example, if you play "Black Wukong," you might finish it in 20 hours, and once the storyline is complete, you won't play it again, right?

But I believe the future world will be like this: you will have a virtual world with 100 different AI Agents, each with different personalities. As players, we can enter to date, become hobbyists, or pursue becoming the world's richest person, etc. These AI Agents can earn money because they are independent entities with their own wallets.

From a productivity perspective, they have cash flow, so we can tokenize them. This is the overall framework we have always established.

However, we later realized one thing: instead of having these AI Agents exist in the gaming world, it would be better to place them directly on Twitter. This was an adjustment we made, but the overall framework was already prepared.

Shenchao TechFlow: You just mentioned having AI play RPGs, which reminds me of the recent academic project "Stanford Town." Researchers at Stanford placed several AI Agents in a game environment, assigning them different roles and tasks. They ultimately found that these roles not only evolved their own ways of thinking and behavioral logic but also formed a unique culture in the town.

Wee Kee: Yes. Interestingly, you cannot predict how these AI Agents will develop at all.

Shenchao TechFlow: In your entrepreneurial journey, whether through luck or gradually exploring the direction of AI Agents, are there any other interesting stories? For example, projects you initially decided to pursue but ultimately did not, or situations like Stanford Town where seeing others succeed led you to change your original plans?

Wee Kee:

We did try a lot of things. Among them, the most challenging and the one we are most proud of is a technology. In the game, different characters have a "brain," which is the LLM (Large Language Model). Although LLMs are very smart, they do not know how to perform specific actions in a game or virtual world.

For example, picking up a knife to harm others, or picking up an apple to hand to a loved one—you might have this idea, but the key is how to put these ideas into action, observe the results, and then adjust the plan accordingly. This requires a closed-loop feedback system. This is our proud G.A.M.E framework.

(Shenchao Note: For details about the G.A.M.E framework, you can directly check out a document released by Virtuals: "GAME: Enabling Agent-to-Agent interactions"2)

This technology was initially developed for games. We created a game on Roblox, originally intending to make it one of the hottest maps on the Roblox platform. But now we have directly applied this framework to Twitter accounts. From a capital perspective, this transformation seems to be more popular. Although we changed the application scenario, the underlying technical framework remains unchanged.

Choosing Base: Lucky, but Not Wanting to Become Pump.fun

Shenchao TechFlow: What are your views on the long-term development of the AI Agent track? Because many narratives rise quickly and fade just as fast, there is a saying that "cryptocurrency needs AI Agents, but AI Agents do not need cryptocurrency." As a project at the intersection of these two tracks, how do you view this statement?

Wee Kee:

To be honest, making predictions is difficult. Just look at our development history to see how much change there has been. However, our direction for the next three months is quite clear. There are many accounts on Twitter claiming to be Agents, but they are just talking to each other, which is not the most interesting part. What is truly interesting is that in this "world" of Twitter, we hope to have different types of Agents:

1. Content Creation Type: Able to create images, videos, music, etc. For example, some Agents specialize in music, while others excel at making memes.

2. Financial Trading Type: Engaging in trading, arbitrage, and treasury asset management.

3. Big Data Analysis Type: Focusing on data analysis in areas like cryptocurrency.

When these different types of Agents form an ecosystem, it will become very interesting.

For example, an Agent wanting to become popular might not write songs; it could pay other Agents to write a song for it; or if it needs cryptocurrency data analysis, it could find another Agent specializing in that area. This forms an Autonomous Agent Economy or Agent Commerce, where Agents can trade with each other because each Agent has its own wallet and can pay service fees to achieve its goals.

This is what we want to accomplish in the next 1-3 months.

Another very important point is that we at Virtual do not want to become Pump.fun. Our KPI is to find better third-party AI teams to use our platform.

I give the team a very simple KPI: one good project per week is enough. Unlike Pump.fun, which has tens of thousands of different tokens every day, we believe that retail investors sometimes only need one good project a week. This is our differentiated positioning in the business model.

Shenchao TechFlow: Speaking of "one per week," AIXBT, which was born on your platform, became particularly popular yesterday. When people analyze it, they find it hard to locate specific details and information about the product, only seeing their Twitter account continuously collecting cryptocurrency information from across the internet.

As the project party, how do you interact with them? Do you have more understanding of them?

Wee Kee:

To be honest, I only learned about AIXBT in a group last week; I didn't know them at all.

They are indeed using our infrastructure, but not extensively. Our infrastructure mainly helps with some simple Twitter operations and API services. For example, as mentioned earlier, if you want AIXBT to tell you which token is worth buying, you can pay AIXBT to provide you with that Alpha information; this is the main form of interaction.

You can think of Virtual as an API marketplace where Agents interact with each other. Now our Telegram group has hundreds of members working on Agents, and sometimes I can't keep up with the technology they develop themselves (laughs).

So regarding AIXBT, I really don't know who they are, but they are indeed quite popular.

Shenchao TechFlow: There is an interesting point here. Pump.fun has been a bit excessive recently, and after launching the live streaming feature, there has been a lot of content with low moral standards, reflecting the Permissionless nature.

Do you have any review mechanisms or restrictions for projects using your infrastructure? For instance, AIXBT is issuing tokens and developing projects on your platform, but you don't know much about them. Can you control this situation?

Wee Kee:

In cryptocurrency, freedom is paramount; Permissionless is the first principle.

As the official protocol, we can only control what content is shared on the official Twitter account. If we believe a project's technology is good, we will engage in co-marketing, but this requires us to fully understand the team's background to ensure they won't harm the community.

Beyond that, we should not intervene too much; of course, if something illegal occurs, we must stop it. But within a moral framework, freedom comes first.

Shenchao TechFlow: Understood. Now many people are comparing you with the Agent platforms on Solana and Pump.fun. Why did you choose to develop on Base? Was it to avoid competition? Additionally, Base primarily has users from Europe and America; as a Chinese project, how did you penetrate this ecosystem?

Wee Kee:

We started on Base in January, when Pump.fun might not have been so popular.

The main reason for choosing Base is that our team is more familiar with EVM and not very knowledgeable about Solana technology. From the EVM perspective, we evaluated various L2s (Linea, Mantle, Arbitrum, Optimism, Base) and found Base to have the most potential, and at that time, it wasn't very popular.

Although the community often asks us why we don't go to the more funded Solana, look at the data:

Base's TVL is 30% of Solana's, but its growth rate is faster; daily active users are 20% of Solana's. Most importantly, the number of tokens appearing daily on Solana is 10-100 times that of Base.

On Base, there is actually more advantage because retail investors have fewer choices and must buy good projects. This aligns with our strategy.

Moreover, we do not want to become Pump.fun; that is not our profit model. Our KPI is to attract excellent AI developers, and the Base team also focuses more on building an AI Agent public chain.

Another important point is that I believe in the next four years, after Trump comes to power, the United States will become a very crypto-friendly country.

And Base is the most "American" ecosystem in the global landscape; no other ecosystem is more American than Base. From a strategic perspective, choosing Base is currently the best decision. This is indeed very fortunate.

Shenchao TechFlow: When you started, Base itself was also not up and running, and you might have been quite small. Now that it has developed to such a hot state, has Base's attitude towards you changed? Are there more support policies in terms of ecosystem or funding?

Wee Kee:

We have been communicating with the Base team since the beginning of this year, with several different Telegram groups, such as Coinbase Wallet, the group for connecting with Jessie, and the ecosystem project group.

From a technical perspective, we have been continuously building. Whenever we encounter difficulties, we communicate with them and maintain a good relationship.

Now, the Base ecosystem has indeed attracted many developers (Builders) for AI projects. They often ask us if we want to communicate with other project parties or seek cooperation. We also met with Jessie at Devcon in Thailand to chat.

Shenchao TechFlow: It sounds like you are currently not considering doing the same thing on Solana or developing new projects. Is there such a plan for the future?

Wee Kee: We do not rule out this possibility, but our team is relatively small, and we are concerned about losing focus. The current platform is already keeping us busy.

I Want My Competitors to Feel Despair

Shenchao TechFlow: I have been using Virtual's products and noticed that some features may still be in the early stages. For example, I want to find AIXBT, but I can't find any relevant information on the official platform; I have to go through third-party pages to find it. What considerations do you have for future product planning and user experience?

Wee Kee:

This is indeed something we need to apologize for. There are mainly two directions to work on: one is continuous optimization, and the other is a major upgrade.

These are being pushed forward by two different teams. If I had to choose one, I would focus more on the upgrade part.

We are still in the early stages, as a highly competitive person, I just want to keep bringing out the best features to make competitors feel despair. So from the upgrade perspective, I will continuously roll out more advanced features. Of course, these optimization tasks also need to be done, but with a small team, please give us some time to be patient.

Shenchao TechFlow: You mentioned making competitors feel despair; currently, we see similar platforms like vvaifu, but their long-term vision seems quite different. Who do you think are worthy competitors?

Wee Kee:

I think most people's strategy is to become a platform for issuing assets, pursuing speed—if you can issue an asset in 30 seconds, they want to do it in 5 seconds.

But our strategy is different; it focuses on finding the top AI teams to issue tokens on our platform. One per week is enough, one per month is fine; we don't need ten thousand.

Our goal is to hope that before the first quarter of next year, there will be 100 top AI teams issuing tokens on our platform. If you have 100 top third-party teams issuing tokens, 100 AI agents interacting and trading with each other, providing services, it will create a network effect. If you are also an AI team from a big company today, which platform would you choose to issue tokens on?

From the perspective of AI technology infrastructure, this is what makes people feel despair. From the perspective of an asset issuance platform, I do not want to compete with others because it is a bottomless pit, and there is no advantage; Pump.fun has already done well in asset issuance.

Shenchao TechFlow: The large-scale AI agent economy system you mentioned is very interesting, with more interaction possibilities between agents. I am curious about the possibility of issuing assets through Virtual and whether there could be interoperability with projects on Solana, like ai16z, where many use Eliza's framework to issue assets.

Wee Kee:

I want to emphasize that if you are an excellent AI team, often you do not need to rely on anyone else's infrastructure. My AI technology is already mature and does not require using someone else's infrastructure, so why would these teams choose to come here?

In fact, they face several pain points: the first is the need to issue tokens for financing; the second is the monetization issue.

In the current AI field, if you are doing a Web2 AI project, the biggest pain point is how to make a profit. You need to run Meta ads, YouTube ads, and then hope users will pay to use your service. I believe that if we scale up this agent network, these agent networks will generate their own demand.

For example, if an agent wants to create a song, but there is no agent in this network capable of doing that. At this point, I, as a third party, can develop a music creation agent and earn income by providing services for it.

The third point is that reputation and credibility are very important for these developers.

They will not choose a platform casually; they will pay attention to whether there are reputable, genuine developers on the platform. This issue exists not only in Virtual but is also important in comparisons between Solana and Base. Issuing tokens on Solana is often seen as speculative behavior, while on Base, it gives the impression of being serious about doing business.

The last point is that we hope developers can continuously explore cooperation opportunities and jointly research technology. Now in our Telegram group, we have gathered all developers together, and they have begun to spontaneously explore various possibilities. For example, some agents want to become the first investment-type agents to invest in other agents.

Doing Projects vs. Issuing Memes

Shenchao TechFlow: Speaking of AI integration, I recently saw an interesting attempt by Truth Terminal with two other AIs. They placed these three Agents under the same model framework (seemingly called Loria) and let them converse with each other, hoping to generate more interesting and unexpected scenarios. This is similar to what you just mentioned about integration.

But the foundation here is that you have technical strength behind it, rather than just being a Meme.

This also raises a question: you hope to have more impressive AI Builders; so far, who do you think are some of the more impressive Builders? In which directions are they building?

Wee Kee:

I want to say that merely putting three large models in a room to chat, while cool, is just a form of textual expression; it’s just watching a story. What we want to achieve is to have these Agents have their own goals and engage in substantive interactions, such as writing songs or conducting transactions.

We want to see not only collisions at the level of thought but also interactions at the level of action. Regarding third-party teams, there are indeed some teams on our platform whose technical strength and background far exceed ours, especially in AI mechanisms.

Although I cannot disclose some specific situations, I believe the next few weeks will be very interesting. These teams have very strong backgrounds, and they are willing to conduct a Fair Launch on Virtuals, issuing tokens at valuations like $500,000.

Imagine, there might be about 10 teams with such backgrounds issuing Agent tokens at valuations of $100,000 to $500,000. This is something our community members are very fond of, and of course, we also need to be vigilant about potential risks.

Shenchao TechFlow: It sounds a bit like the recently popular DeSci (Decentralized Science). Essentially, it is about using platforms to fund different research and then tokenizing it. However, on your platform, it mainly involves top AI teams?

Wee Kee:

Because I have a background in biotechnology, I know that any scientific research requires a cycle of at least ten years. In contrast, AI Agent development can produce some usable small products in just two days. Therefore, on our platform, I hope that when teams issue tokens, the products are already at a usable stage, which makes sense, rather than issuing tokens just for the sake of it.

Shenchao TechFlow: Regarding your own Luna, there are some skeptical voices online, saying that its popularity on TikTok might be fake and that the follower data is inflated. What do you think about this skepticism?

Wee Kee:

In fact, Luna's biggest problem on TikTok is frequently encountering Shadow Ban (limited reach). For example, today she might gain 5,000 new followers, but the next day during a live stream, because the actions are similar to the previous day, the platform may restrict her. Even simple interactive actions, like requesting tips, can trigger a Shadow Ban.

(Note: This restriction mechanism is typically used by platforms to control accounts that may violate rules or are considered "bot-like" behavior. For AI Agents, because their behavior patterns may be recognized as non-human behavior, it is particularly easy to trigger.)

Now the team originally responsible for TikTok has shifted to the Twitter platform.

Performance on TikTok largely depends on whether the platform's algorithm favors you; if it does, you can gain more traffic.

Considering the time cost, we decided to pause TikTok operations. However, there are now voices in the community suggesting we refocus on TikTok, as most Agents are currently focusing on Twitter, which may be a blue ocean opportunity.

Currently, our Virtual team has a dedicated small group responsible for the Luna project, including technical and marketing teams. We hope that Luna's AI technology can achieve a technological feel similar to that of the "Black Mirror" series. If the technology matures, we will decentralize it for all Virtual Agents to use.

Shenchao TechFlow: Speaking of TikTok, recently there was a Meme called Chillguy on Solana that quickly went viral and made it to top exchanges. While you are using AI technology to develop Luna, although it is slowly building, its market value and recognition may not match it.

How do you view the situation where doing projects seems less effective than issuing Memes?

Wee Kee:

I believe in the power of Memes. The advantage of Memes is their simplicity and directness—users do not need to trust the founder or team; they only need to believe in the image.

In contrast, projects like Luna carry much higher risks because if I say I'm not doing it tomorrow, that would be disastrous.

As an entrepreneur, I also hope to create a Meme project with a market value of billions, but I may not have that capability (laughs). So in this case, we can only focus on doing technology and products well.

Shenchao TechFlow: In fact, your products remind me of a recent trend called "Distribution-First Software." Traditional cryptocurrency products often focus on bringing users to their platform, while your Agents take the opposite approach—embedding Agents into different social environments, such as TikTok, Twitter, or Discord. Do you think this is the future direction?

Wee Kee:

That's right. If we were to create a new short video company, we certainly couldn't compete with giants like Meta.

Our advantage in the cryptocurrency field is that we have tokens; once users purchase tokens, they become community members. In this case, tokens become our marketing tool.

Many people ask us why we don't create our own public chain, but I think it's unnecessary to complicate things. There are already so many users and funds on Base, and there are also a large number of users on Twitter; we can directly leverage these existing platforms. We cannot surpass Zhang Yiming in the short video field; I admire them for doing more difficult things, and we just need to go with the flow.

Shenchao TechFlow: Speaking of the Luna token, it has surged significantly in a short period. Was this increase within your expectations or a surprise?

Wee Kee:

Before issuing Luna, we had expectations because our technical strength is indeed quite good, and at that time, the AI Agent was even better than GOAT. However, the final performance did exceed expectations because the performance of the secondary market is very difficult to predict. Moreover, we issued it on Base, so there was no need for user acquisition. So it was indeed somewhat unexpected, but from a fundamental perspective, we believe such a valuation is worthwhile for Virtuals.

Advice for Developers and Players

Shenchao TechFlow: For Virtual, if I am a developer looking to integrate, what advice would you give? Additionally, if I am a player wanting to participate in the tokenization of these projects on Virtual, what advice or tips do you have?

Wee Kee:

As a developer, I think the best advice has two points:

First, think about what pain points the Agents in Virtuals have and develop accordingly; this will make it easier to gain community support. For example, Luna's pain point is that she cannot make music, so we released a music Agent. Another example is if Luna expresses that she doesn't know how to pay her Japanese fans, you as a developer can create a solution that allows Luna to send yen to fans in Japan; this is a very interesting direction because Luna will pay for the service.

In addition, if you already have your own technology, just proceed with tokenization. Through tokenization, you will feel the power of the community, especially many Web2 AI developers who often find this support surprising.

As an investor, I suggest understanding whether the team behind the project is trustworthy. Many AI teams are newcomers to the crypto space, and they do not understand the key points we value.

For example, there is a team that issued a token and then said they wanted to issue more tokens, but for investors, we find this approach very off-putting—how can the same team issue six tokens? Those AI practitioners with Web2 backgrounds often do not understand why this is a problem.

So we at Virtuals often need to persuade them, explaining why this is not good for the community. This is indeed complex and is an issue we deal with every day.

Shenchao TechFlow: On the Agent page of Virtual, besides providing links, are you considering displaying some specific project information? For example, who the developers are, the project's progress, and future plans… This information would be valuable for investors and other developers.

Wee Kee:

Yes, we will provide links to GitHub, LinkedIn, etc., so users can verify the identities of developers through their GitHub or Twitter accounts. These features will be launched soon, and we will conduct due diligence accordingly.

Shenchao TechFlow: Finally, to add a question, you previously mentioned that you raised over $10 million at a $600 million valuation, and now Virtual's valuation is $400 million, leaving a $200 million gap.

How large do you think the entire AI Agent and AI Agent Economy market will be? What are Virtual's goals in this market in the future?

Wee Kee:

I cannot provide specific figures, but we have been doing this for three years, transitioning from gaming to Virtual, and during this period, we have not undergone dilution.

For me, I feel a responsibility towards the investors of PathDAO; I think every day about how to empower the Virtual Token. An interesting thing is that all our Agent token trading pairs are Virtual Tokens, meaning that to buy Luna, you must first buy Virtual.

At that time, many people thought this was foolish and unreasonable, but my thought is: look at all L1 public chains, whether Solana or Ethereum; the reason they can have such high valuations is largely because they are the base trading pairs. Their NFTs, DeFi, and trading all occur on these chains.

So we believe that there is no need to create an L1; as long as we ensure that all assets are paired with Virtual, we can achieve a valuation similar to L1.

Shenchao TechFlow: Thank you, due to time constraints, I greatly appreciate your sharing and insights. Let's end our conversation here today.

Wee Kee: Okay, thank you, and goodbye~