Latest interview with the founder of Pump.Science: After RIF and URO, what is the next DeSci + meme?

Original Interview: The Thread Guy;
Guest: Benjels, Co-founder of pump.science, member of molecule;
Original Compilation: zhouzhou, BlockBeats

Editor's Note: This interview features Benjels, co-founder of pump.science, who brought significant attention to DeSci with the support of CZ and Vitalik at an event in Bangkok. The discussion covers the innovations brought by DeSci and its future directions, mentioning the practical significance of raising experimental funding through token trading to advance medical and longevity technologies. Benjels also shared new Alpha information, indicating that pump.science will launch nearly 20 new experimental tokens around Christmas.

The following is the original content (reorganized for readability):

About Pump.Science

Thread Guy: Can you briefly introduce yourself and this project (pump.science)?

Benjels: I am a scientist and also a "retail investor." What frustrates me is that there hasn't been a way to balance both identities in the market. For example, you can trade stocks of biotech companies, but their data release cycles can take months, lacking the real-time updates and continuous speculation. Sports betting is different; you can place bets in real-time based on the dynamics of the game. However, there isn't a similar model in the scientific field, so we want to create a "game" for science.

Thread Guy: That sounds interesting. How does it work specifically?

Benjels: Specifically, our team initially created NFTs for compounds but later realized that people are actually more interested in "fungible tokens." The appeal of NFTs is limited; most people prefer to own a part of the entire asset. So we shifted to tokenizing the intellectual property of drug compounds.

Thread Guy: Is it about breaking down intellectual property into tokens on-chain?

Benjels: Exactly. We represent the intellectual property of a compound in the form of tokens that can be traded. Instead of having to buy all the drugs of a biotech company by purchasing its stock, now you can choose to invest in a single drug.

Thread Guy: Why hasn't anyone done this before?

Benjels: Mainly because blockchain and crypto technology are relatively new, and the scientific community typically progresses slowly. Additionally, this involves complex legal issues, and we spent a lot of money hiring lawyers to ensure everything is legal.

Thread Guy: Where do you buy the intellectual property of these drugs?

Benjels: You need to contact the pharmaceutical companies directly to inquire if you can buy the intellectual property, which then involves lawyers and costs tens of thousands of dollars, making it very expensive since legal issues require lawyer involvement. What we are doing now is as simple as sending tokens. Instead of writing complex contracts for IP licensing, our solution is to send a token directly, which is our understanding of the licensing method.

Thread Guy: But hypothetically, could you buy the intellectual property of nicotine under certain circumstances?

Benjels: Nicotine occurs naturally and cannot be patented. However, if you combine nicotine with other substances, like mixing it with caffeine, that combination can be patented. What we do is tokenize these patents or data and then test their effectiveness.

In simple terms, you can think of it this way: for longevity, we will test the effects of compounds on animals. One area that particularly interests me is "nootropics," which are essentially anything that helps the brain function more efficiently. For example, nicotine is a nootropic, caffeine is too, and there are many similar compounds that can help enhance brain function. We can also study through animal testing, such as verifying whether a substance can help rodents think better through different rodent experiments.

Overall, research like nootropics is something we can engage in, but currently, "longevity" is the easiest area to study because everyone ages, and the outcome of "living or dying" is the most easily understood. Therefore, we can use this data to attract investors.

Thread Guy: So the process you described sounds like it requires overcoming significant institutional barriers, and then launching it on Pump.fun. Can you tell us about that process?

Benjels: We launched two tokens, Rif (Rifampicin) and Uro (Urolithin). At one point, Rif had a market cap close to $250 million. Overall, these tokens have surpassed $1 billion in trading volume since their launch. The compounds behind these tokens can be used to develop supplements, and in the future, profits can be made through sales or patent licensing. To attract more investors, we need to develop a set of data to prove the effectiveness of these compounds, such as significantly extending lifespan in animal tests.

When will new tokens be released after RIF and URO?

Thread Guy: You already have two tokens, so when do you decide to launch the next one? How should we seize the next early opportunity? Or should we buy existing tokens? What are your thoughts on this?

Benjels: The new tokens may launch around Christmas. The first token is called Rif, so we will hold a "Rif Christmas." We plan to release 1 to 2 tokens daily for about 10 days. One thing to understand is that we are limited by real-world constraints. The laboratory resources we collaborate with are limited, such as the number of devices and experimental animals. If we opened it up completely like Pump.fun and allowed everyone to submit experimental requests, our experimental capacity would be far behind. So initially, we need to operate on a small scale. The goal is to gradually scale up so that eventually anyone can submit experiments, creating a frenzy like Pump.fun.

However, we will start with about 20 tokens, gradually showcasing their development paths, including tokens like Rif and Uro, ultimately hoping to advance to human testing stages and even develop a product market where these different supplements can be sold. As for how to seize early opportunities, I can reveal some "insider" information: we may launch 20 tokens during the Christmas period.

Thread Guy: I think most token enthusiasts usually believe the first token will be the most valuable. But the mechanism you described seems more like "survival of the fittest," seeing which drug performs best. Do you think this dynamic will change? What advice or guidance do you have for those who want to participate and learn more about DeSci projects?

Benjels: I would suggest paying attention to some metrics; the coolest thing about science is that data is generated in real-time. Although it sounds a bit cumbersome, the compounds we submit already exist, and you can look up relevant information online, possibly even related scientific papers. Our goal is to turn geeks into scientists while also transforming scientists into geeks.

What makes this project special is its close connection to the real world; it’s not just a "meme," these could be potential longevity drugs. You can learn about these compounds online, and we will also generate relevant data to provide early indicators of their effectiveness. For example, the two experiments we are currently conducting are both about fruit flies. We will not only record whether the fruit flies are alive or dead but also monitor their speed and distance of movement.

Additionally, our goal is to combine the current AI craze to create an AI bot that trades based on this data. Whether it's humans or AI trading, we don't mind. We realize that the future may be an AI-dominated trading era, especially in the scientific field. You can develop your own AI agent to trade using the data we provide. This is our vision for the future, especially in science, where this approach is almost impossible to implement in the real world, so we must "gamify" the process.

Thread Guy: If there are currently two tokens and later there will be 20, will the best-performing tokens be correlated with the best testing results?

Benjels: I won't comment directly on prices, but the market will determine the results. However, it can be said that experimental data may indeed influence the performance of the tokens.

How to monetize drug IP?

Thread Guy: Do you plan to sell these drugs to pharmaceutical companies?

Benjels: No, we will sell directly to consumers while providing clear data to support their effectiveness. When you buy supplements now, it's hard to know if they are useful for you or what specific effects they have because there isn't a dedicated venue to test the effects of these supplements one by one.

We are funding research through gamification and turning this data into part of our marketing, such as saying, "This supplement extended the lifespan of fruit flies by 50% and allowed them to run faster and travel further." Currently, no one can propose similar research or conclusions. We hope to transform speculation into research funding while producing products that can genuinely extend lifespan.

Thread Guy: Considering you have been working in this field for two years, can you talk about how you got started? What is your team like?

Benjels: I have been working in the DeSci field for two years, and the Pump Science project was launched two weeks ago before the Breakpoint conference. We launched two tokens during the conference and have been working hard to develop this project since then.

Thread Guy: Did people have doubts about your project? Especially when you first mentioned "science," what was the reaction?

Benjels: At first, people thought it was quite unreliable. When it comes to "science," people often think of boring experiments and rigid things. But we want to make science no longer seem dull; you know many people found science classes boring in high school, and we want to change that perception.

Imagine channeling the crazy drive of Degens (crypto geeks) into science, allowing these people to participate in interesting experiments that ultimately help us extend lifespan. This is the core of our project. It's actually a kind of incentive theory similar to Polymarket: as long as the right incentives are set, people will find the right answers.

Thread Guy: The concept of "Polymarket" you mentioned is indeed interesting; using incentive mechanisms to find the right answers and applying this mechanism to science is a very crazy idea. This is also a significant signal; this could be the path the next "Elon" is taking!

Benjels: I think we want to bring real longevity experts into this project and impress them with the data we generate. But we don’t want to start by saying, "Look at this crazy casino speculation game," because they would just turn away.

Most of the people I admire are in the longevity field, and we will use research data to impress them and get their attention. At that point, they will be curious, "Who funded these experiments?" and we will tell them it’s the speculative market, which is an unprecedented research approach.

Thread Guy: Will this data be used by other researchers, or is it exclusive?

Benjels: Currently, this data is generated exclusively by us, but that is precisely the pain point in the longevity field. The FDA does not consider aging a disease. If you want to develop a drug, it must target diseases like cancer, heart disease, diabetes, etc., because those are considered "diagnoses."

But aging is not viewed as a disease or diagnosis, so you cannot develop a drug solely for extending lifespan. This leads to the public market basically not funding this type of research, and institutions like the NIH will not invest in this area. VCs also won’t fund it because insurance does not cover the costs of supplements; only drugs for diseases can be covered by insurance. So the sources of research funding are limited. I think the deeper you go into the healthcare field, the more you see the truth; it’s like "The Matrix," no one is here to help you stay healthy. Everyone wants you to get sick and then give you a super expensive drug to cure you, which is really a bit scary.

But this is precisely the opportunity for change: we can fund research ourselves instead of relying on VCs or the government. This funding may come from random "speculators."

Thread Guy: Clearly, I see a lot of value in these tokens, and I do hope there is a channel for me to invest in these indices, or if there is a place to concentrate investments, whether it's like a "DAO" or something similar.

Benjels: I have some insider information to share; last Wednesday, I had dinner with Shaw and Bao, and they plan to create a DAO fund. Although the details are not finalized, we are moving forward, and there may be actions soon. We will announce it on Twitter. However, there is a problem: we don’t want to create a market and fund the tokens in the market at the same time, as that would look too problematic, so we are looking for an external team to operate this fund.

Thread Guy: How can one submit a drug? For example, can Thread Guy submit a compound?

Benjels: Of course! If you have an idea, you can submit it on our website. However, currently, about 90% of the submissions involve illegal or controlled substances, such as THC and other drugs. Unfortunately, due to laboratory licensing requirements, we cannot handle these compounds.

Thread Guy: What kind of projects can be submitted? Is there really no research left to be done in the world?

Benjels: You might think all research has been completed, but it hasn’t. The core of science is to explore questions that have not yet been researched and find answers. That is the meaning of science: to identify important questions that drive human progress.

So, our current idea is: we only have a relatively simple form right now; you just need to submit your ideas on it, and the form is available on our website. If you go to the pump.science website, it basically says "Submit a new experiment," and you can submit anything you want. We are collecting good ideas and bringing those people in, and they become developers, what we call "drug developers."

They will submit experiments and own the intellectual property. So in the short term, we will maintain small-scale operations because we have certain limits on the number of experiments. But the ultimate goal is to make it like pump.fun; when the tokens reach a certain market cap, these experiments will be initiated, and we will be responsible for all operations. For example, trading fees will be used to fund research, and this funding will be sent to laboratories for research. Ultimately, experiments will progress from worms, fruit flies, and mice to humans, and then we can launch products.

Thread Guy: How do you get approval to sell these drugs?

Benjels: It depends on which country you are in; each country has different regulatory processes. Basically, where you manufacture the drugs, you must have a certification system like GMP. GMP stands for "Good Manufacturing Practice," similar to what the FDA checks at manufacturing sites to see if they are compliant and have complete documentation. We won’t do this ourselves; we will outsource it to professionals.

Thread Guy: Is this process difficult? Does it take many years?

Benjels: Yes, the process is quite complex and expensive, but we won’t handle this part; we will leave it to professionals. We will focus on building the token and data components, managing the data flow and management of these experiments.

New Opportunities in the DeSci Field

Thread Guy: I found many different names related to Bio while searching; what is that?

Benjels: Binance invested in Bio, which is basically a DAO composed of multiple DAOs, each focusing on research in different areas. For example, VitaDao focuses on longevity research, and HairDao focuses on hair loss research. You see, there is almost no funding in the hair loss field, so a group of crypto investors facing hair loss issues, who also have a lot of cryptocurrency, want to create their own hair loss drugs.

The existing drugs on the market (like Rogaine and Finasteride) have average effects. So, HairDAO is currently doing very well; their token price is high, and they are developing multiple drugs. You should check them out; they are truly industry leaders.

In addition, there is a DAO focusing on women's health, a DAO focusing on cryotherapy, etc., all of which are research areas that have not received funding but have a lot of public interest, so they launched these DAOs to fund related research. We are very optimistic about the longevity field.

Binance invested in Bio, which is an index token across all these DAO tokens. If you think DeSci has great potential but are not interested in hair loss or longevity, you can choose to invest in the Bio token, as Bio is essentially a liquidity token for these tokens. I hope this explanation helps you understand.

Thread Guy: What is the focus in the longevity field?

Benjels: I think the core is to look at the U.S. spending on healthcare. Healthcare spending in the U.S. accounts for 20% of GDP, which is enormous. But if you look at lifespan, our lifespan is actually declining. We are spending more money but getting shorter lifespans.

So the question arises: why is this happening? You will realize that the entire healthcare system is not designed to help you live longer but to extract as much money from you as possible. This is the core of longevity theory. If you truly care about health or want to live longer, then we must take action ourselves. So this is the foundation of the longevity field.

But we also believe that besides longevity, there are many other areas that can be explored. We are starting with longevity because it is the largest market; after all, everyone cares about their lifespan.

Additionally, we are very excited about biohacking. This includes not only research on new drugs (nurotropics) but also the large biohacking community on Reddit, where people experiment with various chemicals to see if different substances can improve their physical performance or health. You know, there are also methods like cold water therapy, where people are trying these extreme challenges.

Many people have indeed tried to enhance physical performance through biohacking. Now, besides fitness enthusiasts who want to get stronger through exercise, there are also many people focused on triathlons and other projects, wanting to improve their running speed. This involves a category called "performance-enhancing drugs" (PEDs), but research in this area is still very limited. So many people start self-experimenting, and some even look for drugs from China to test on themselves. Therefore, our idea is that before we start self-experimenting, we should conduct some animal experiments.

Thread Guy: Would you recommend some private "cognitive enhancement" (nurotropics) products?

Benjels: Yes, my favorites are Methylene Blue, which is not a "drug," and nicotine lozenges, which work well, as well as Modafinil, which is also an excellent choice.

Thread Guy: What about Lion's Mane?

Benjels: Lion's Mane is a mushroom that helps regenerate neurons, which is beneficial for brain cells. So it's great, but you might not feel the effects immediately; the other drugs I mentioned will have more noticeable effects.

Thread Guy: When will you open a drug store on the Pump.Science website?

Benjels: I actually think it's a bit excessive that this hasn't happened yet. We expect to launch the store around the first quarter. Although everyone is quite averse to roadmaps, this is a real progress. We are not the kind of internet company that can innovate casually; we are doing tangible operations. We are working with some actual manufacturers to establish a supply chain while building an e-commerce platform. We also plan to introduce a token mechanism where tokens will be repurchased and burned when products are sold, creating token scarcity and thereby increasing prices.

Thread Guy: Suppose you launch a drug, like nicotine (although we can't do that now), if I buy a lot of it, and the price skyrockets, then sales are booming. As a token holder, should I expect the token price to rise because the intellectual property is now more valuable, or because of the repurchase and burn mechanism? How does this process work?

Benjels: This question is indeed a bit complex, and lawyers usually advise me to be careful with my words. I will try to explain cautiously. If token holders vote to decide on a repurchase and burn, then the profits generated from product sales will be used to repurchase and burn tokens, creating a deflationary effect, which will increase the token price. So, if enough token holders vote in favor of this plan, the repurchase and burn mechanism will take effect. This way, the value of the tokens can gradually increase. It is important to note that this mechanism cannot be set up from the start, but if decisions are made through group voting, it can avoid some legal risks.

Thread Guy: If I want to learn about the 20 new drugs you are going to release, how can I find relevant research materials? For example, if I want to know the specific information about these 20 drugs, how can I find the related research and data?

Benjels: We will disclose their identities before the drugs are released, so you can do some research in advance. However, although we plan to release about 20 drugs, we are still obtaining data from the laboratory. So it is uncertain whether these drugs will all be effective. However, we will release information about the compounds that will be tested soon and then start opening a mechanism similar to "Pump.fun," where tokens begin trading. Once the market cap reaches the target, experiments will be initiated.

Thread Guy: Do you think I should try to launch a "Thread Guy" themed drug, or should I research how to submit a drug?

Benjels: Of course, you can try! Even if you only have the idea of nicotine, you can start from there.

Thread Guy: Can you give us some specific advice on how to maximize the benefits from this opportunity? What are the next steps and points to focus on?

Benjels: I can introduce Pump Science because I am currently working on this project. I think the most important point is that everyone is very fascinated by AI right now; indeed, AI is cool, allowing interaction with automated systems and even enabling them to trade.

But to be honest, science is the driving force behind social progress. Although it sounds a bit cliché, we live in a physical world, and technological innovation can change a lot, especially in the medical field. When people view cryptocurrency, they often think it’s just gambling, but we can truly change everything, particularly in large fields like medicine.

Thread Guy: How do scientists view this?

Benjels: Scientists have very mixed views; some are very excited about this because we have funded many researchers who are very happy with this funding, as it may be something they could never obtain through traditional channels.

On the other hand, some scientists are skeptical because cryptocurrency carries a certain stigma in their eyes. So we have to try to change this perception, aiming to produce real research results and develop meaningful products. If the scientific community is willing to accept it, that’s great; if not, that’s okay too. However, I believe attitudes are slowly changing.

Thread Guy: You mentioned that many "Trap Science" people find you suspicious. So how can I judge whether you or other DeSci platforms are suspicious?

Benjels: I suggest you check the on-chain transaction records to see how the funds are flowing. Are the funds genuinely invested in scientific research rather than wasted elsewhere? You can also follow projects you care about and see how they are executing.

Nowadays, people are less focused on past plans and more concerned about "what have you done today." For this cycle, I think everyone should maintain high expectations for all projects. If a platform always conceals its progress, it likely has issues. If we conduct experiments transparently and show real-time results, it indicates that we are serious about our work and have invested funds. Our current approach is to publicly display all experimental progress to ensure that funds are genuinely used for research.

Thread Guy: With so many new concepts happening simultaneously in the DeSci field, what should people pay the most attention to?

Benjels: If you care about living longer and not dying, projects like Brian Johnson's, if you truly hope to live longer, then you must take action yourself. Your doctor won’t come to save you, and hospitals won’t save you. They will cure your diseases after you pay a hefty price, but they won’t help you prevent them.

It’s like, if you enjoy living and want to continue living tomorrow, feeling that life is still interesting at 80, then you need to make some changes. If you want that choice, we must make changes. So, we will do our best, but we need everyone's help. If you just want to live to 80 and then pass away peacefully, that’s fine; but we are doing this for those who want to "live forever."